# Episode 148
In Episode #148 Ari shares the podcast with Ann Rae of [Artists Who Thrive](http://artistswhothrive.com/) and [Making Art, Making Money](http://www.makingartmakingmoney.com/)—Resources that help artists understand the business-end of creativity. During their conversation Ann explains how she persevered in the face of failure to ultimately create an art-centric career capable of generating over $100,000 per year.
# [Less Doing Does Europe!](https://www.gazelles.com/summits/EGS-2015/Barcelona/index.html) Watch Ari bring the lessons of Less Doing to some of Europe’s most famous cities including Barcelona, Munich, Amsterdam and Budapest for the 2015 European Growth Summit. Ari will be joined by fellow masters of entrepreneurship Steve Martin, Director of _Influence at Work_ in the UK, and Verne Harnish, founder and CEO of Gazelles.
EO Vancouver On June 18th, join Ari at the Fairmont Waterfront Hotel in b-e-a-utiful Vancouver, B.C. as he takes the microphone for _EO Vancouver_. Enjoy this unique opportunity to watch Ari candidly discuss life as an Author, Speaker, Teacher and – most importantly – Achievement Architect.
**Time Stamped Show Notes:**
– 16:03 – Introduction of Ann Rae of Making Art, Making Money and Artists Who Thrive
– 16:25 – Ann’s personal story
– 16:50 – The art market is absolutely HUGE business and it exploded during the recession…unfortunately – like publishing and music – it is guarded by gatekeepers
– 17:39 – Why Ann quit art school for a corporate job
– 18:00 – Why Ann returned to art: _If you’re naturally a creative person and you’re not creating anything it can have absolutely devastating effects on your psyche_
– 19:30 – The IRS doesn’t care that you’re “an artist” If you’re making money with your art, you’re a business person
– 19:40 – There is a false and idiotic distinction between making art and making money
– 20:37 – The Making Art, Making Money semester
– 22:00 – “The starving artist” reference is bullshit
– 25:05 – Is there a benefit to going to art school?
– 26:12 – Selling your material is about being friends with your benefactors…at least at the beginning
– 27:00 – You have to _learn _your craft
– 27:15 – _Every entrepreneur is an artist and every artist is an entrepreneur_
– 28:20 – Self-expression without attention to the craft is worthless
– 29:30 – The stereotypical artist “self-absorption” is completely counter-productive to success
– 30:40 – The film _[Untitled](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1132193/)_
– 33:30 – _If you have a message for the world you need to make art—But if you want to be heard, you have to sell your art_
– 34:50 – Selling art sucks, the art market is completely saturated—Art needs to be the by-product of a greater value proposition
– 35:15 – Create unique value above-and-beyond the art that serves a target market
– 36:20 – Copywriting is _key_—PROTECT YOUR WORK
– 38:07 – Art dealers are very, very hit or miss
– 38:40 – The problem using an intermediary
– 42:55 – Ann’s _Top 3 Tips for Being More Effective:_
– 43:03 – Know yourself…being effective is great, but to what end?
– 43:45 – We do not succeed alone…relationships equal revenue
– 44:32 – Take some time to goof-of
**7 Key Points:**
- The art industry is plagued with gatekeepers—Learn how to market yourself and your product
- _If you’re naturally a creative person and you’re not creating anything it can have absolutely devastating effects on your psyche._
- Making art and making money do not need to be mutually exclusive.
- Artists may not like to hear it, but if they’re making money with their work they are – by default – entrepreneurs.
- _If you have a message for the world you need to make art—But if you want to be heard, you have to sell your art._
- Network. Network. Network —
Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/lessdoing/message